Curse

lyra_song · Aug 28, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taki

As someone mentioned before, most people going on to GW:EN have already beat NF and have all the heroes which proves the original statement false. In the good spirit of not rightfully dismissing the argument, let's take it that the player only plays as far in NF to get either Souske or Jin and then up to the preview portion of GW:EN.

No, most people going into GW:EN have not beaten NF. This is a bad bad bad assumption. You can have the "first batch" of heroes but never beat Nightfall.

Quote:

If E+R is not superior to E+E
And E+E is not superior to E+R
Then either combination chosen will be personal preference, i.e. there is no 'need' to pick Jin or Souske.

If no need exists, how can you remove it?

VERY GOOD!

Vekk is mandatory to unlock since he is part of the primary quest.

Sousuke and Jin are not! This is the crux of the counter-point.

Quote:

You said Jin is cleary superior. If you meant to say a superior choice, even that is wrong.

True enough. You can invalidate the topic, but its not really what im arguing for. I guess im bad at naming topics. ;p

Quote:

Choosing either E or R again is a personal choice as above. But you must be crazy bored to state a point, argue said point, then counter and defeat that very same argument.

i actually can argue both sides. LOL. I could have easily presented the arguement that having Jin makes choosing Margrid redundant or Olias makes Choosing Master of Whispers redundant, but that goes into realm of mission difficulties, but even that can be reduced down to personal preference.

Bryant Again · Aug 28, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taki

If E+R is not superior to E+E
And E+E is not superior to E+R
Then either combination chosen will be personal preference, i.e. there is no 'need' to pick Jin or Souske.

Thread over. It sounds like ya'll are bored, though, so keep goin' at it!

Red Sonya · Aug 28, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

I always choose Jin over sousuck because I know I'm going to get Zhed pretty quickly and I make Jin a touch ranger anyways with blood renewal and it works quite well until I get to Zhed. By then I have one or both necros and of course the monks and my trinity is complete until the end of the story. Sousuck is an afterthought at the end and then something I like to play with to change things up from necro necro ele or monk necro ele which are my common two trinities of heroes I use. Two Discord Necros and an SF ele is unbelieveable power.

ValaOfTheFens · Aug 28, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The following is not personal preference:

Vekk is a mandatory Hero. Sousuke is not.
Both are elementalists. Both are easy to get (more or less).
If you do not choose Sousuke you get Jin.
The only other Ranger in Nightfall is Margrid, who is also a "choice" character.
There are redundancies in the game with the heroes since theres multiple copies for some of the professions. (I never say that redundancy is bad, but its still a redundancy).

Now...that being said. E+R is NOT superior to E+E, but rather having E already removes the need for another E so early in the game. R is not superior as a class (never said that). Also note, i never say there is ANY need for a Ranger.

Choosing E again becomes a personal choice. Thats when superiority of classes and preference of skills and builds comes in.

This topic is neither logical in thought or relevant in any way.

I'm done arguing because I realized that it completely subjective and that no one is really right or wrong when arguing a subjective point.

bhavv · Aug 28, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

E + E + E and E + E + R and E + R + R are all just as good if you know how to use them. It doesnt make any difference.

I picked Jin when I got NF without realising I couldnt get Sosuke if I did. I cried for days. Then when I paired SF with Barrage I was in shock. It is superior to using all SF ellys. And what a lot of people dont realise is that a lot of enemies take very little damage from SF.

Longasc · Aug 28, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

E + E + E and E + E + R and E + R + R are all just as good if you know how to use them. It doesnt make any difference.

I picked Jin when I got NF without realising I couldnt get Sosuke if I did. I cried for days. Then when I paired SF with Barrage I was in shock. It is superior to using all SF ellys. And what a lot of people dont realise is that a lot of enemies take very little damage from SF.

I think many people still believe having as much SF Eles is the best and only way to deal damage or win a mission.

For Hard Mode with henchies only I recommend this:

You (Curses Necro with SS, Reckless Haste, Mark of Pain, Price of Failure or something else, Enfeebling Blood, SolS, Rez, whatever you want)

+ Jin, Margrid (Barrage/Pet Rangers, set up with 2 Major runes, 12 Marksman, 13 Expertise, 12 Beast Mastery, now with Feral Aggression)
+ Olias (Icy Veins MM)

Retribution X · Aug 28, 2007, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Unlike the other preview events, we were allowed to KEEP things we unlocked this past weekend. Vekk and Ogden have been unlocked for my account. My guildmates have Jora and Xandra already.

And regardless....you show that the Charr hero is NOT gained early on, which is one of the stipulations of the situation.

I got all 6 heros during the weekend.

see, we got Jora because we were not allowed to do the other branches. The charr hero might have been faster and easier to get then Jora.

Aye, Barrage may rape SF, but anti-physical is a helluva lot more common than interrupts...

HuntMaster Avatar · Aug 28, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

i suppose this thread is more for the metagame players but ill post my opinion anyways.

i dont think this Vekk invalidates sousuke because many players prefer to gain an elemental hero asap. i chose Jin because i was getting whispers instead of the other ranger. my normal party consists of Dunkaro,Whisper,Zhed. i have not beat any of the games yet and do not have all the heroes. eotn will allow me to increase my total hero selection without the waiting to complete NF.

also i do not believe Most players who get eotn already beat NF because their are thousands of prophecies and factions players who dont have nf yet but plan to get eotn.

I would like to add that my elementalist character chose Sousuke instead of Jin, i like variety and each character i use with unlock differant characters, so even if i dont beat the game, i can still expeariance each hero (excluding Raz)

i also think the way you unlock Raz shouldnt be changed. its an accomplishment to have him in your party. and he looks cool!

themeteor · Aug 28, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

umm why not just finish the game and get all the heroes, that way there is no need to worry

reetkever · Aug 28, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

If you want to pick the ele instead of the ranger, it's your own choice. Acolyte Jin sucks if you never plan to use a ranger hero, anyway. Same goes for Zhed, when not wanting to have an ele in your team. It all relies on which heroes you want to take, and which builds you want to give them.

However, one isn't 'better' than the other. An Acolyte Jin with a good build, will always be better than a Zhed Shadowhoof with a bad build.

Just take the hero you have most skills unlocked for. ^^ Jin won't help much with only 5 ranger skills unlocked, or Acolyte Sousuke with 2 Water, and 2 Earth Magic Spells, and that's it.

Also, if one does not have GW:EN, he might still want to choose Sousuke in the beginning, and then, Margrid The Sly as a ranger hero.

In the end, it doesn't matter, since you can unlock all heroes then.

-Makai- · Aug 28, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

I would like to add that my elementalist character chose Sousuke instead of Jin, i like variety and each character i use with unlock differant characters, so even if i dont beat the game, i can still expeariance each hero (excluding Raz)

Thank you. It's refreshing to know that other players care more about enjoying the game than being "uber".

psycore · Aug 29, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Interesting topic, I've been doing research on Hero's today actually.
I've noticed that some hero's do things better then others.

Example - Dunkoro vs Tahlkora

Dunkoro pawns Tahlkora in healing where Thalkora pawns Dunkoro in protection.

When you look at there "initial" skill builds, Dunkoro has 4 healing, and 2 unlinked skills where Tahlkora has 4 protect, and 2 unlinked.

This tells me there initial skill builds shows the where there AI tends to be good at.

Lets look at the 3 ele hero's

Acolyte Sousuke default build is 4 fire, 1 engery, 1 earth, 1 unlinked
Zhed Shadowhoof default build is 2 water, 2 earth, 1 engery, 1 unlinked
Vekk - default build is 4 air, 1 water, 1 engery, 1 unlinked

Looking at that, I think all can do fire, but when it comes to air builds, I think Vekk could handle air better then Sousuke.

The ai is all the same, it's your perception of them that makes them apparently better at one job or another.

Gregslot · Aug 29, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Souzuke is the coolest elementalist in the game!

countesscorpula · Aug 29, 2007, 01:42 AM // 01:42

so Vekk "invalidates" Sousuke... And then you choose Jin....
So Jin "invalidates" Margrid... So then you choose Whispers...
BUT Whispers was pre-emptively "invlaidatedededed" by getting Olias...

Oh noes!!! Who do I choose? I get to Margrid and Whispers and I already have 1 Ele, 1 Necro, and 1 Ranger? Whatever shall I do?

And poor Sousuke... banished forever (or at least until I finish the game).

I don't see this being a very big deal. Choose the hero that pleases you most, and get on with it.

snikerz · Aug 29, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

regarding SF as a choice of skill to put on the eles is BAD for GW:EN simply because fiery destroyers are immune to burning, no burning, means no damage from SF, and you would think the icy creatures have less armor against fire dmg, but the way gw mechanics have been setup, they actially are more resistant to fire

fenix · Aug 29, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Off topic, but snikerz, you have the best avatar on the forums. Hands down.

Red Sonya · Aug 29, 2007, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by snikerz

regarding SF as a choice of skill to put on the eles is BAD for GW:EN simply because fiery destroyers are immune to burning, no burning, means no damage from SF, and you would think the icy creatures have less armor against fire dmg, but the way gw mechanics have been setup, they actially are more resistant to fire

Not sure about the destroyers, but, I can easily say that isn't correct with the icy creatures because I went out with my dual ele/monk team with cynn and the earth ele and myself having a unique W/E fire build and with mark of rodgort that I lead off with we totally fried those ice creatures quite quickly. Bout the only one(s) that appear to have some resistance are the bosses which really don't have any resistance they just have more hit points and more base armor.

snikerz · Aug 29, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Off topic, but snikerz, you have the best avatar on the forums. Hands down.

lol ty, dirty minds alike!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Not sure about the destroyers, but, I can easily say that isn't correct with the icy creatures because I went out with my dual ele/monk team with cynn and the earth ele and myself having a unique W/E fire build and with mark of rodgort that I lead off with we totally fried those ice creatures quite quickly. Bout the only one(s) that appear to have some resistance are the bosses which really don't have any resistance they just have more hit points and more base armor.

ahh yeah i thinking about mountain trolls in particular being highly resistant to fire dmg, but yeah things like ice golems are weaksauce to fire.

Series · Aug 29, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

I take Lyra off my ignore list for 5 seconds and this is what I find. *sigh*

Kashrlyyk · Aug 29, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by themeteor

umm why not just finish the game and get all the heroes, that way there is no need to worry

I hate the end of the Nightfall storyline, therefore I am trying to avoid going to the end.

I always take Jin and Whispers, because I despise Kormir. And broadhead arrow is more useful then a SF.